2-track/USB input & output in the X1204USB - what's it for?

[cimmerian]

First timer here, so please be candid but patient.

I just bought a X1204USB (like, today) and started messing around with it. I connected my mp3 player into the 2-track/USB jacks and I can hear it fine with the phones, and the VU meter senses it alright, but I can't record it in the computer!

Looking around on the Internet (not here) I've found people saying it's normal, with no further explanation. Am I doing something wrong or the 2-track/USB isn't supposed to get recorded? If so, what's its purpose?

[Andrew Luck]

There's some logic behind the routing of the x1204USB's 2-Track / USB functionality that will help to understand.

The first thing you should understand is that you can only play back music via the USB or the 2-track RCA input on that bus. I assume your MP3 player is connected to that RCA input.

Next, there are two red 2-track/USB buttons for routing the output of the playback through the Main Mix or the Ctrl Room output. One is located in the "Source" box for the Ctrl Room selection. The other is directly about the volume dial for the Headphones/Ctrl room output to the right of that "Source" box.

When these buttons are pushed in, it allows for playback of the 2-track OR the USB input from your computer. When out, this will allow you to record the signal flowing through the Main Mix output. Assure your Main Mix faders are up and you are receiving a healthy signal.

The problem this is presenting is that you are not able to playback the 2-track input and record simultaneously.

There's a simple solution for recording your MP3 player. You should utilize a stereo 1/8" to dual 1/4" cable, to input in one of the stereo channels, such as 5/6 or 7/8.

Utilizing one of these stereo outputs will allow you to play back through the Main Mix output while the red 2 track / USB button is in the up/off position. (in recording mode) This will allow you to record and playback simultaneously!

stereo 1/8" to dual 1/4" -> http://tinyurl.com/d6vrxyv

[cimmerian]

Cool. I'll try what you suggested.

Thanks for your reply!

[ashofphoenix]

looks like there is no way to have 2tracks(or USB) AND Console on the control output at the same time so ? can't hear already record track + input of mixer while only recording mixer then ?

Should be specifically note on userGuide coé saying '2 tracks can be switch either on control or main mix' does not mean mixer is disconnected from control while tracks is switched to control.... :'( guess no solution except buying one with matrix input on control output then ?

[Chris Painter]

looks like there is no way to have 2tracks(or USB) AND Console on the control output at the same time so ? can't hear already record track + input of mixer while only recording mixer then ?

Should be specifically note on userGuide coé saying '2 tracks can be switch either on control or main mix' does not mean mixer is disconnected from control while tracks is switched to control.... :'( guess no solution except buying one with matrix input on control output then ?

Ash,

The 2 track/USB input to the mixer, is the only output that cannot be routed back into the USB to the computer. This is specifically designed to prevent a horrible feedback loop. Typically, you won't want to record the computers output, back into it's input. To record any external source, use any of the inputs, just not the RCA 2 track inputs.

We hope this helps!

[ashofphoenix]

I thing you misunderstand me... I don't want to loop back USB/2track From PC to Console and back to PC for recording... I'm just saying that the Q802USB can EITHER send 2TRACK_in/USB_in OR mixer1/8 to CONTROL output but not both at the same time.

MAIN MIX output of course should and must remain from mixer1/8 ONLY, as it's the output to 2TRACK_inout/usb_out

But In CONTROL output, I would have like to be able to hear pre record tracks from USB_in/2TRACK_in AND mixer1/8 at the same while MAIN MIX output keeps only mixer 1/8 to 2TRACK_out/USB_out...

In other world "matrix input to controm output"... IN Q802USB documentation, it is just saying that "2TRACK_in/usb_in can be switch either CONTROL output OR MAIN MIX output" That's nice, I Understand that ! BUT it was not clearly specify in Q802USB that you will have to 'choice' between 2TRACK_in/usb_in OR mixer1/8 for Control Output. See the difference ? Now I Have to use another personnal mixer to "mix" CONTROL ouput AND MAIN MIX output to be able to listen to mixer1/8 AND pre record trackers from 2TRACK_IN/USB_IN...

I thing you should clearly specify that point on Q802USB documentation that it's not a MATRIX INPUT in CONTROL OUTPUT in order for people like me not to be surprised. I saw clearly specified "matrix inputs for control ouput" in your series but the "small inputs" series are not cleary "NOT MATRIX" specified

[Pavel Krassikov]

The 2 track/USB input to the mixer, is the only output that cannot be routed back into the USB to the computer. This is specifically designed to prevent a horrible feedback loop. Typically, you won't want to record the computers output, back into it's input. To record any external source, use any of the inputs, just not the RCA 2 track inputs.

I've bought the X1204USB Mixer 2 weeks ago, mainly for the live performances and Karaoke needs.

I've spent a week googling around but could not get the 2TR/USB IN/OUT working.

1. From the X1204USB USER MANUAL: The XENYX mixer line has built-in USB connectivity, allowing stereo signals to be sent to and from the mixer and a computer.

Note, "to and from" means the USB connection should work the both ways not just one way at a time - otherwise it would be written as "either to or from".

So I assume the stereo signal as a source can be sent from a computer to the mixer by the USB connection.

2. From the Berhinger X1204USB webpage: That’s where XENYX USB mixers come in. Thanks to the built-in, bi-directional stereo USB audio interface, you can connect any of these mixers directly to your PC or Mac computer via a single USB cable. Now any signal source you connect to the mixer can be recorded directly to your hard drive.

Looks like the USB connection works the both ways at the same time (from #1) so the USB IN as a signal source (from #1) can be mixed with the microphone and other instruments, and the mix sent back to the computer thru the USB OUT (from #2). Let's see...

3. From the X1204USB USER MANUAL: Audio being sent to the mixer from a computer can be routed to the main mix with the 2-TR/USB TO MAIN button.

So the stereo signal from the USB IN can be routed to the MAIN MIX.

Note, it does not state mixed but rather routed.

4. From the X1204USB USER MANUAL: The audio sent from the mixer to a computer is identical to the MAIN MIX.

So everything on the MAIN MIX should be duplicated to the USB OUT and DAT OUT.

Now it comes the tricky part not described anywhere: one can play music either from a computer thru the USB IN or from a DAT thru the 2-TR IN, hear it in the HEADPHONES or the MONITOR OUT, mix it with the vocals and instruments in the MAIN MIX but unable to record the resulted mix thru the USB OUT because the signal coming from the USB IN / DAT IN is stripped out from the output stream - here comes the false advertising as the USB OUT is not identical to MAIN MIX.

Even if you can hear USB IN / DAT IN mixed with the microphone on the HEADPHONES and MONITOR OUT, you cannot record your live performance or Karaoke because the USB OUT and DAT OUT can catch only vocals and instruments not USB IN / DAT IN (see the quoted post for the details).

Please explain how to reproduce that "horrible feedback loop" described in the quoted post? Does this loop come when I play music on one application and record the mix on another application on my PC? Or this issue is only with one of your bundled applications? Or when I play music from my iPAD and record the mix on my computer? Or when I play music on my computer and record the mix on my DAT?

For maybe 10 years now they do not make sound chips with the 'thru channel' so you are unable to hear a MIC IN mixed to the sound card output - as result all the computer based Karaoke applications are useless today because you can hear the 'minus', and your singing WITH the 'minus' can be recorded (often with some delay) but you cannot hear yourself singing live along with the 'minus' thru the sound card because there is no way to link your MIC IN directly to the LINE OUT/SPEAKERS. So what does this specially designed feature actually fix?

Well, the provided application Audacity allows to loop the input back to the output using the Edit -> Preferences -> Software Playthrough when your vocal comes back to the mixer and messes up the whole picture. But you are smart enough to not enable this kind of "horrible feedback loops" in the application. Same in Windows 7, you can duplicate any recording device to any other playback device thru the DirectX (with some delay) such as BEHRINGER LINE IN to the BEHRINGER LINE OUT, and get another example of the "horrible feedback loops" - unfortunately this "specially designed" USB lock does not prevent these kinds of loop.

So for me this looks like a bug in either design or implementation of this mixer.

Probably this is a good idea to hear music in your headphones and sing or play along, and only record the new stuff back to the computer but why should it be especially limited this way? This mixer is not suitable for a serious studio recording because it does not support 24-bit/96+KHz but rather 16-bit/48KHz (and even 16-bit/44KHz with the own driver) so I would position it more for small home studios and live performance.

Unfortunately you cannot record your live performance or Karaoke because your USB IN and DAT IN is stripped out from the USB OUT/DAT OUT.

Sure, you can connect your computer not by USB IN but rather by analogue LINE OUT -> STEREO IN and thus record your mix to the USB OUT / DAT OUT along with the IE "clicks" and ICQ "O-o!"s or buy an additional sound card to workaround this "limitation by design".

Well, there is one more tricky workaround to select USB IN on the SOURCE panel, patch the MONITOR OUT back to the STEREO IN and then mix this signal to the MAIN MIX - this way the digital signal from the USB IN is converted to the analogue, mixed to the vocals/instruments, converted back to the digital form and sent back to the computer by USB OUT. But this way you are unable to use HEADPHONES and select MAIN MIX on the SOURCE panel because you will get the real horrible feedback loop! Now you create the loop while trying to workaround the feature which prevents non-existent loop.

Why these is nothing in the User Guide and on the website stating "there is a specifically designed limitation to do not allow mixing the USB IN /DAT IN with the vocals and instruments and record the result to the USB OUT / DAT OUT"? I'd choose another brand/model for my live performances and Karaoke parties which really works with the USB not just states as it supports bi-directional playing from USB/DAT and recording back to USB/DAT everything from the MAIN MIX.

So please reveal the real purpose of this "secret limitation by design" and explain how it helps us, and how to disable this feature by soldering or firmware upgrade.

Hope this explains my issue clearly.

Thanks,
Pavel

[Glenn Slater]

Hi Pavel,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your issue clearly.

The X1204USB works great for people creating music, but is not ideal for your application. Your special needs can be met with a converter that gives you more outputs like the UMC204.

You can see one at:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/UMC204.aspx

Best Regards,

[Pavel Krassikov]

Hi Pavel,

Thank you for taking the time to explain your issue clearly.

The X1204USB works great for people creating music, but is not ideal for your application. Your special needs can be met with a converter that gives you more outputs like the UMC204.

You can see one at:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/UMC204.aspx

Hi Glenn,

The device you've advised (which is not on a market yet, according to the link provided) will not help me - I do not make studio recording.

I try to use the X1204USB mixer for two purposes:

1. Live performance: 1-4 mics plus a guitar & electro-piano plus a 'minus' coming from the USB IN - everything goes to the MAIN MIX not to the USB OUT which misses the USB IN signal in the stream - as result I am unable to record the performance. Workaround is to split MAIN OUT and use a computer LINE IN to ADC the stream and then record it instead of the direct digital USB OUT.

2. Karaoke: 1-4 mics plus a 'minus' coming from the USB IN - everything goes to the MAIN MIX not to the USB OUT / 2TR OUT which misses the USB IN signal in the stream - as result I am unable to record the performance. Workaround is to add USB IN to the SOURCE (instead of direct mixing USB IN to the MAIN MIX), patch MONITOR back to the MAIN MIX using any STEREO IN (thus disabling the monitoring feature of the mixer to avoid the real feedback loop) and this way finally get USB IN signal on the USB OUT / 2TR OUT.

So the question again is, why the USB IN signal is stripped out from the USB OUT, with the real example of a horrible feedback loop prevented? Using my workaround #2 I do not get any feedback loop on the USB IN - USB OUT, other then created by the patch MONITOR OUT - MAIN MIX after I select MAIN MIX in the SOURCE.

And another question is, how to disable this feature and get USB IN to USB OUT working (firmware update, soldering)?

Thank you very much for your help!

Pavel

[Glenn Slater]

Hi Pavel,

You certainly know how to get the most out of a mixer! For most people using the X1204USB, the features satisfy their needs.
We have to try to prevent what most users could do to damage their own equipment. This is reflected in the design of the X1204USB

We no longer recommend any modifications by any user on their equipment. We hope that you understand that this is not because of any doubt of your abilities. This is just a firm policy that we do not have a work around for.

Best Regards,